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or leaders your grooming who might not be the most obvious once. i wonder, for instance, do you think a good man or a good woman can ever be a bad leader? >> oh, sure. i think history is full of good people to ended up being bad leaders because they either cannot see clearly what needed to be done. but could not look evil in the eye and see to it was. -- they could not look evil in the eye and see who it was. laying off 274 people is not a nice thing to do. my mother would not approve of that. you try to do it in a decent, honest, respectful way. if you're going to leave an institution -- lead an institution, the institution is the most important of all. we have had some effective leaders, at least for a time. i think of stalin or hitler. they got something accomplished, but they were bad people. i do believe i am looking for a leader, you look for somebody with integrity. it is not sufficient to be a good leader. over the long haul, to be an effective leader, you have a basic sense of integrity. you need to be honest with yourself about assessing the situation and what is possible any need
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